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You may be familiar with the five stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. After decades of research and his own experience with tragic loss, grief expert David Kessler ventured beyond that classic framework and sought a sixth, crucial stage: meaning. He shares practical wisdom and strategies for anyone seeking to honor a loved one’s memory and move through life in light of personal loss. (This conversation, hosted by TED curator Cloe Shasha Brooks, is part of TED’s “How to Deal with Difficult Feelings” series.)
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Transcriber:
Cloe Sasha Brooks: Hello, TED Community.
You are watching a TED interview series
called How to Deal
with Difficult Feelings.
I’m your host, Cloe Shasha Brooks,
and a curator at TED.
In this four-episode series,
we’ve been talking with psychologists,
authors and other experts
who have shared insights and research
about difficult feelings
and how we can handle them.
So now I will be speaking
with David Kessler,
an author who has written six books
on grief and loss.
Two of those books were co-authored
with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross,
a Swiss American psychiatrist
who was a pioneer in near-death studies.
And his most recent book,
published last year,
is called “Finding Meaning:
The Sixth Stage of Grief.”
So let’s bring David on screen.
Hey, David, thank you for joining us.
Let’s dive right in.
So many people are struggling
with grief right now
and the five stages of grief
are kind of typically known to be denial,
anger, bargaining,
depression and acceptance.
But can you tell us
about the sixth stage of grief?
David Kessler: Absolutely.
And I always like to point out
I was honored to work
with Kübler-Ross on her stages.
They’re not linear,
they’re not a map for grief,
there’s no one right way to do grief.
And I think as people experience them,
and also, as you know,
and some people may know,
I’m not only a grief specialist,
but I’m a bereaved parent.
I had a younger son, David,
die a few years ago.
Once I and so many people
experience acceptance,
we want more.
Acceptance isn’t enough
for our generation.
I think we want meaning.
And I believe meaning is the sixth stage.
And when we talk about meaning,
I always like to point out
there’s no meaning in a horrible death
or in a pandemic
or in a wedding being canceled
or a job being lost.
The meaning isn’t in the horrible event.
The meaning is in us.
It’s what we find afterwards.
CSB: I mean, I just think that’s
such a helpful perspective
for people to hold on to.
And I also really appreciate, you know,
you’ve written about these seven
different factors
that guide the concept of meaning
when it comes to grief.
Can you tell us
about those seven factors?
DK: They are, first,
meaning is relative and personal.
Two, meaning takes time.
You may not find it until months
or even years after loss
because you can’t rush the meaning.
You can’t say someone died
or a dream died or there’s a pandemic,
“What’s the meaning?” right away,
it often takes time.
And three, meaning
doesn’t require understanding.
You know, we may not understand
why a relationship ends,
why a divorce happens,
why a pet died, why a pandemic happens.
But we can still find meaning.
And four, even when you do find meaning,
you won’t feel it was worth the cost.
We’d always rather have
the person we loved.
And the fifth one —
and the fifth is a big one —
your loss is not a test,
a lesson, something to handle,
a gift or a blessing.
Loss is simply what happens in life.
And the meaning is in us afterwards.
And six, only you can find your meaning.
And seven,
meaningful connections can replace
those painful memories in time.
The post-traumatic stress
that’s going on in the pandemic,
I always remind people,
one, we’re not post,
and two, we can also
not just go through this,
but grow through this.
And there’s the possibility
of post-traumatic growth also
that I think is so important
during these tough times.
CSB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Let’s bring up a question
from our audience.
OK, so someone asked,
“Having lost a daughter,
how do I explain my grieving process
to those who don’t understand
but want to?”
DK: You know, the reality is,
people often, as hard as they try,
may not understand our grief.
You know, I don’t know what it’s like
for you to lose your job,
you don’t know what it’s like
for me to have a child die.
And I think one of the important things
is for us not to compare griefs
and to know the world is big enough
for all our losses.
So I think sometimes we have to let go
of the expectation that they get it.
And we have to go,
“I know you can’t get it.
So let me tell you
what this grief feels like to me.”
And share our grief.
CSB: Yeah. And you, kind of,
have talked a lot about that,
how there’s big losses and little losses,
but they’re all valid, right?
And they all get to coexist.
DK: I remember that I was walking back
in April, in front of my house
with a friend, six feet apart
with our masks on.
And a young woman walked up to me
and said, “Oh, my gosh,” you know,
“I heard you do something in grief.
My wedding’s just been postponed.”
And she burst into tears.
And I talked to her, we —
You know, she shared her experience
and everything, and I consoled her.
And after she walked away,
my friend said, “Oh, my gosh,
I can’t believe she was going
on and on about her wedding,
when your child has died.
She’s going to get to have
another wedding.”
And I said, “No, no, no,
we don’t compare in grief.
We don’t have a broken head,
we have a broken heart.”
And everyone gets to have
their own unique grief.
And, you know, she’s been dreaming
about her wedding since she was five.
It doesn’t take away from my grief.
All these losses
live in the world together.
CSB: Let’s bring another question
from the audience.
Someone is asking, “Can you tell us
more about post-traumatic growth?
How can I start to grow from a loss?”
DK: It’s such a great question,
because we always hear
about post-traumatic stress,
But post-traumatic growth
actually occurs more.
And that is the finding meaning.
Here’s one of the myths:
We think we make our grief get smaller,
that that’s the goal.
The goal isn’t to make our grief smaller.
The goal is for us to become bigger,
to grow around this grief.
It’s not “what are we going to do
after this pandemic,”
but “who are we going to be?”
It’s not, “what are we going to do
after this loss?”
But “Who are we going to be?”
How can we honor the person who died?
How can we make a life and a world
that’s more meaningful,
where maybe the bad thing
that happened to you
doesn’t happen to other
people in the future.
Or you shape someone’s legacy.
Or we keep talking about them.
As long as we talk about our loved ones
who are no longer physically with us,
they don’t really die fully.
So just allowing ourselves
to continue in life
is a bit of post-traumatic growth
and not shutting down.
And we need support.
You know, it’s interesting,
if something’s going on with our car,
we get support.
If something’s going on
with our apartment,
we get support.
Sometimes we think we just have to fight
our way through grief
and it’s OK to ask
for support and for help.
CSB: It’s so important to remember that.
When it’s not tangible
we forget how to ask for help.
Along those lines,
do you believe there’s
a time line for grief?
DK: Absolutely not.
You know, when people ask me,
“How long is my wife, my husband,
my best friend going to grieve,”
I always say, “How long
is the person going to be dead?
Because if they’re going
to be dead for a long time,
you’re going to grieve for a long time.”
It doesn’t mean you will always
grieve with pain.
Hopefully in time you can grieve
with more love than pain.
But there is no time line,
and I always say we don’t get over loss.
We don’t recover from loss.
Our loved one was not a cold or a flu.
We learn to live with it.
CSB: And for those who are maybe ready
to start on the path of meaning
as they move through their grief,
how does one start that process?
DK: It’s actually a decision.
Are you willing to find meaning in time?
Are you willing to let yourself
just live a little more?
Are you willing to try to think of a way
that might honor
what’s happened in our world
or what’s happened
in the loss in your life?
It’s a small decision.
Am I willing to grow?
Am I willing to live past this
in a way that honors what I’ve lost?
CSB: Let’s bring up another question
from the audience.
“How can we help our children
when they experience grief?”
DK: Such a good question.
You know, our children
are often the forgotten grievers,
And it’s so important —
Here’s one of the things:
Mourning is what we do on the outside.
Grief is what’s inside of us.
I can’t make you grieve.
I can’t make my kids grieve.
All we can do is model healthy grief.
And how do we model
healthy grief for our children?
We tell them part of our work
is to grieve fully.
It’s OK to be sad.
It’s OK to miss that person.
And to live fully.
Life also has to go on.
I’ve still got to go to work,
you still got to go to school.
So it’s the grieving and the living
is what we model for them.
CSB: And it’s so hard to with kids
because it seems like, in some ways,
they may not even know
what they’re feeling, right?
So, like, how much of grief with children
involves helping them
understand definitions
or even identifying feelings and all that?
DK: Yeah, and to just name it
and open the conversation
and just to let them know,
you know, you can always
talk about it with me.
You know, kids actually understand more
than we give them credit for.
CSB: That is true.
DK: And euphemisms don’t work.
Don’t tell them Grandpa’s gone to sleep
or Grandpa’s on a long trip.
You want to be honest.
CSB: So, OK, here we are in a new time.
We’re starting to come
out of this pandemic,
at least in some countries in the world.
How do you think
our collective grief might shift
in the next few months to years from here?
DK: Well, the one thing
I hope we don’t do is
I hope we don’t lose this ability
to have these conversations,
because that’s been one
of the pieces of meaning
that’s been important,
is for the first time we’re naming
these feelings we’re having.
We’re understanding grief,
we’re talking more about grief.
And I hope we don’t lose that after this.
I hope we understand grief
is such a natural part of life,
that everyone you’ve ever admired,
every amazing person in the world,
has gone through tough grief.
And there’s nothing wrong with you
when it happens to you.
It is part of our lives.
CSB: Yeah.
We’re coming close to the end,
so just as a final question
for you, you know,
if someone is really struggling through
the depths of their grief right now,
what’s just the most important thing
for them to remember?
DK: Reach out and get support,
talk to someone,
maybe someone who’s been
in grief themselves
that can share that with you.
It can be the family member, the coworker
and get support from an organization,
grief.com, as well as so many other sites,
have lots of free resources
that people can find.
And I also want to remind people,
we get so afraid of our feelings,
like if I start crying, I’ll never stop.
I remind people no feeling is final,
no feeling is forever.
You do stop crying eventually,
but release those feelings
in a healthy way.
CSB: Yeah, that’s really helpful.
I think that’s one of the things
that growing up has shown me the most,
is you know, any emotion is not permanent.
And so that’s a source of relief, right?
DK: And we get so stuck
in thinking “This is it forever.”
But we don’t know what tomorrow
is going to look like.
I always say take the word — always —
I say take the word “always” and “never”
out of our vocabulary.
When we go, “I’m always going to be sad,”
or “I’m never going to be happy again.”
No, you don’t know what tomorrow is like,
but today you’re feeling sad.
Just name your feelings for today.
CSB: Yeah.
Thank you, David, this has been
really, really meaningful,
and we’ve learned so much from you.
So thanks for joining us.
DK: Thank you.
CSB: Have a great day.
Nisha Bhattarai RN 56
September 1, 2021 at 3:09 pm
Early
Singer A to z
September 1, 2021 at 3:12 pm
Ted is very good talking chanal
zoze al bani
September 1, 2021 at 3:23 pm
All the best ❤️♥️
ANY Rank
September 1, 2021 at 3:23 pm
great 👍👍
Sarah Hall
September 1, 2021 at 3:32 pm
I cant stop crying. I do have ” Broken Heart Syndrome”. I am in so much pain. Im trying to incorporate my Horrible Grief into my Life….
M SC
September 1, 2021 at 3:49 pm
I would like to honour your tremendous effort
Sarah Hall
September 1, 2021 at 3:38 pm
David, I’m crying for your loss. You are a kind man. So kind you remind me of Mr. Rodgers.. I wish I was as strong as you…
True Crime Queen TV
September 1, 2021 at 3:40 pm
Love your content!!! Stay safe everyone ❤️ ❤️
Mr7Reality
September 1, 2021 at 3:41 pm
The five stages of grief
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
The final stage being expressed here
6. Meaning
The final stage to me
7. Unhealthy amount of self hatred, loathing, and guilt
shorgoth
September 1, 2021 at 5:09 pm
undue shame… it gnawed at me for decades, it was a symptom of my complex PTSD. It usually happens when you have unresolved issues in your grief, when something is not resolved. You probably need to face those emotions again with cognition, reevaluate the trauma and what surounds it. That undue shame is usually cognitive dissonance when we missattribute events unconsciously to ourselves in an irrational manner. The exploration of that grief to reattribute the cause and effects correctly and re going through grief to do it correctly this time is key. When it is linked to someone’s death we call it survivor’s guilt. Now, you might have made a real mistake and it gnaws at you… don’t know, too little information. If it is so then you have to find forgivness for yourself. Most of the time it means accepting that yes we made a mistake but also admitting of the circumstances surounding our own actions. If you really really really fucked up, then I’m not sure what to do except expressing contrition and learning from that mistake openly.
Henry Chang
September 1, 2021 at 6:32 pm
I’m not an expert, but I found an article on Healthline titled ‘How to Stop Feeling Guilty’. I hope that will help you in some way. I tried to comment with the link, but it keeps disappearing.
M SC
September 1, 2021 at 3:47 pm
This was very validating ty
Hehe Chen
September 1, 2021 at 3:52 pm
I like psychology, and this video is most useful for me.
Terri Quinn
September 1, 2021 at 5:26 pm
I love psychology. I would LOVE to get my psychology degree but I don’t believe I have the strength to use it efficiently.
Goof Love
September 1, 2021 at 4:25 pm
Thank you so much for enlightening us with such great wisdom
Nathan Walker
September 1, 2021 at 4:26 pm
Thank you David, i found this very informative!!
Goof Love
September 1, 2021 at 4:30 pm
Thanks a lot to Sasha Brooks for bringing up such a difficult issue
Serendipity
September 1, 2021 at 5:07 pm
I would have liked David to talk about overcoming ones “guilt”.
After the loss of my beloved son Jerett, my husband asked me if he should hold the meds I happened to be taking at the time, giving them to me as prescribed. We both knew what he was trying to say.
I don’t remember it, but husband said when he and I were standing at Jerett’s casket, I was crying and kept saying, “Why didn’t he take me with him… he should have taken me with him.” It’s been 3 yrs, I still have not stopped crying. I think my guilt (imagined or real) keeps me from peace.
Henry Chang
September 1, 2021 at 5:15 pm
Did you mean you’re guilty because you said those things?
Serendipity
September 1, 2021 at 6:04 pm
@Henry Chang …. My guilt lies with him taking his own life.
Henry Chang
September 1, 2021 at 6:28 pm
@Serendipity I’m sorry that I failed to understand it. And I’m sorry for your loss. I’m not an expert, but I found an article on Healthline titled ‘How to Stop Feeling Guilty’; I hope that will help you in some way. I tried to post this comment with the link several times, but it keeps disappearing.
Sylvia
September 1, 2021 at 7:18 pm
I’m so sorry about what you are going through. If you are willing, you can try to find a hypnotherapist to help you. I’m a hypnotherapist myself so I know how hypnotherapy can help with freeing us from deeply stuck feelings. Sending you lots of love and may you find inner peace. 🤍
Subiya Amreen
September 1, 2021 at 5:11 pm
Beautiful, Thanks Ted for this ❤️
JamesAutoDude
September 1, 2021 at 6:32 pm
After like 20 years, I don’t think it’s possible. But I’ll try…
Vernesha Esquer
September 1, 2021 at 9:58 pm
I’m in the same boat.
JamesAutoDude
September 1, 2021 at 10:20 pm
@Vernesha Esquer really? I’m so sorry 😔
Shea Floyd
September 1, 2021 at 7:06 pm
I just lost my mother last Saturday. I’ve been taking care of her for the past 8 years, so finding this was exactly what I needed. Thank you so much & I’m terribly sorry for the loss of your son
SuperOTAKO
September 1, 2021 at 7:25 pm
Im sorry for your loss floyd … you are a good son and these 8 years spent taking care of your mother will bring you peace in this life and afterlife…
Amie V.
September 1, 2021 at 8:13 pm
I am so sorry for the loss of your mom, Shea. I totally understand. I loss my brother (45) a year after I loss my mom (65). My dad out lived them over a decade and then he finally joint them. It still feels like just yesterday. You will always going to remember your mom and your loved ones that have passed on. There are times I’m still sad and missing them so much. It seems like I never stop grieving. Know that we are here with you, and also know that your mom is looking from heaven smiling at you and still a proud mom.
Shea Floyd
September 2, 2021 at 12:39 am
@SuperOTAKO thank you so much for the kind words. It truly means a lot to me. I hope you have/had an incredible day!
Shea Floyd
September 2, 2021 at 12:43 am
@Amie V. thank you for sharing your story! That is alot to endure in a very short period of time. Hearing this gives me comfort & lets me know I’m not alone . After all, I do have some amazing people around to lend support, whether it be family or a few great people on the internet. Thanks again and have a fantastic day!
Pinned by TED
September 2, 2021 at 9:42 am
So sorry for that
Nathan Walker
September 2, 2021 at 11:10 am
@Shea Floyd Hi Shea, im so sorry to hear of your loss . Just know your an awesome son for taking care of your mum. Remember all the good memories you made together. My thoughts are with you and family at this time. Peace ✌
Sylvia
September 1, 2021 at 7:19 pm
Thank you David, for sharing these amazing insights.
Bradley Clutton
September 1, 2021 at 11:36 pm
Needed this, I’ve been given up the last year , really don’t care if i live or not. I need to start somewhere hopefully it’s this video
Chi Chi
September 1, 2021 at 11:42 pm
This host is emotionless. I can’t ….
CoffeePoints
September 1, 2021 at 11:47 pm
Me: I am the Senate.
Also me: Not. Yet.
Possibly me?: It’s treason then.
Lisa Love Ministries
September 2, 2021 at 12:08 am
Proverbs 3:5-6 👑
Proverbs 8:17 💝
Proverbs 9:10 🙏
Elena Yee
September 2, 2021 at 12:20 am
My mom died 10 years ago this past April and still miss her especially when I look at photos or have dreams that simply show up. There is no such thing is closure, not really.
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R D
September 2, 2021 at 2:14 am
Thank you David. I am very sorry for the loss of your son.
Ksvjnr
September 2, 2021 at 3:58 am
So true every word you said my God. I had a preterm baby 7 years ago who lived with us in the nicu for 81 days… my 4th child. So handling grief was all I was doing not just for myself but my kids and family too… I found meaning in it thru numerology that I’ve studied and was able to move through it… thank you. It all suddenly makes sense. I hope we can all find meaning in our lives again thru our loss! Amen.
Irene Dymond
September 2, 2021 at 6:48 am
Perfect timing, I lost another friend yesterday, they leave such a hole in my life. I am trying to focus on what I had rather than what I have lost
Animated Motion Graphics 4K
September 2, 2021 at 7:41 am
Oh Hi,
Whoever is reading this, I just want to let you know that these past 2 years has not been great for everyone with the pandemic, so I just wanted to say, that I believe in you! Keep chasing your dreams!! No doubts here ^) Best wishes for you ❤️ from a small YouTuber
– Please don’t hate if you see my comments on other videos, I am just trying to Spread some love and encouragement!! 🙂
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Aerodyll UK
September 2, 2021 at 8:42 am
I lost my job 7 years ago. It took me 10 years to get it, I had it 2 years then the company went bust and I was left in a recession with nothing. It has taken me 6 years to get over that loss, and 1 year to figure out what to do with my life now.
I felt silly all this time having my life turned upside down because of a job, but it really hit me that hard.
Compared to those who suffered real loss I feel like a joke, yet at the same time I have to admit, I spent the last 6 years feeling lost and hopeless every day. It took me to the edge of suicide and through therapy I felt a bit better.
Cee Jay
September 4, 2021 at 5:02 pm
Heyyyyyy… loss is loss… don’t judge that by saying those who suffered “real loss”…your job WAS a real loss. I’m glad you’re still here to share💜💜💜🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
EMS 76
September 6, 2021 at 5:36 pm
I can relate to your story more than any others I’ve heard. I invested my life in the pursuit of an incredibly challenging career. It took four degrees, endless sacrifice, a fair amount of debt, and despite all the obstacles I made it …. nearly. With one final hurdle to jump to permanent job and financial security, I collapsed in a nervous breakdown. I lost the job Then my parents got sick. I moved in with them. Then the pandemic hit. Old friendships started to fade. Then my sister was struck with stage four cancer.
And here I am, now, trying to decide what to do with my life and career.
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Denise deMello
September 2, 2021 at 9:34 am
The moderator needs to take serious lessons on how to conduct a Q n A show. She’s inexperienced and it clearly shows. No disrespect meant.
Brian Spiegel
September 2, 2021 at 12:53 pm
I’m a therapist and often listen to other professionals. This man’s lecture was awesome. Thank you sir. Very valuable information.
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AliceAndTheQueen
September 2, 2021 at 12:53 pm
-Through Covid I became a first time mum
– My family did not see me pregnant because we live interstate.
– I could no have a baby shower
– I physically did not go baby shopping it was all online
– my husband could not come to the ultrasound to find out the twins sex’s
– I had to got to many appointments alone with lots of scary news
– my husband could not spend more than two hours with me in the hospital per day, I was hospitalized a few times.
– I spent 48 hours in quarantine from suspected coved 2 days after my babies were born, did not see my babies during that time.
– my daughter was in the NICU for 3 months before she passed away, to spend time with her I had to give up time with her twin brother because he was not allowed in the NICU a lot of the time.
– my family only meet my daughter the week she died this January
I don’t know what to ask for help wise, I’m mad, I’m sad, I’m very overwhelmed with my emotions. I have just started seeing a therapist, I hope it help.
R. K.
September 2, 2021 at 12:59 pm
Lost my wife 1,5 years ago, mother of 3, age 42. Your words resonate with me.
Amber C
September 2, 2021 at 5:42 pm
❤
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Anthony Jasi
September 2, 2021 at 4:42 pm
Agree with David on most of what his saying but just like crime or sin, grief can’t be equal and to even suggest it is, is very unfair. Am sure, the lady whose wedding was cancelled, would prefer to have her wedding cancelled than have her fiancé die if given the option and in that, lies the difference in grief. I find being able to compare my grief with others allows me to understand how lucky, I am to be right here in this position. Wd have been worse is the expression, and whenever I compare, it’s easier for me to move on.
Denver Maburutse
September 2, 2021 at 7:12 pm
Is there a link to the full series
Brooke Smith
September 2, 2021 at 8:17 pm
Great video. Have you heard of Matthew Kelly?
Prabhash
September 3, 2021 at 2:46 am
Thankyou so much
Sheeple Slayer
September 3, 2021 at 3:34 am
I mean.. any situation.. of loss.. if you lose a loved one.. think about this.. would they want you to be unhappy?
Probably not.. and, if they did.. you shouldn’t respect their advice or feel pain beyond what is already there. Compassion is rare.. true compassion, I mean.
Live your life for you, but… try to do good and sometimes.. the best way to help.. is not to help..
GI ***
September 3, 2021 at 10:50 am
You should invite Teal Swan. Regulary. 👉💎
Pinned by TED
September 3, 2021 at 12:30 pm
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Pinned by TED
September 3, 2021 at 12:30 pm
Thanks for your comments,I will introduce you to something totally different and quiet profitable in Crypto today ±•¹•⁷•¹•⁹•⁶•²•⁷•⁹•⁶•⁸•²
Sandra Noworul
September 3, 2021 at 10:35 pm
Thank you so much for sharing this powerful & timely wisdom. Have you heard of Matthew Kelly’s book Life is Messy?
Hafsa Mohamad
September 4, 2021 at 1:42 am
Thanks David
Awesome support and words
Arabella Younge
September 4, 2021 at 11:31 pm
“We dont compare grief , we dont have a broken head we have a broken heart” 💔 I really wish people would be more sensitive of the things they say to people that are hurting and going through stuff we know nothing about we are all experiencing some sort of Pain, Be kind.
Pinned by TED
September 5, 2021 at 10:10 am
Thanks for watching, more
guidance & to invest in Crypto
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bellarose
September 4, 2021 at 11:31 pm
“We dont compare grief , we dont have a broken head we have a broken heart” 💔 I really wish people would be more sensitive of the things they say to people that are hurting and going through stuff we know nothing about we are all experiencing some sort of Pain, Be kind.
Uyên Nguyễn
September 6, 2021 at 10:09 am
This is the best I’ve ever seen. I’m been touch the most due to your generousity to everything, like an angle, you just look down from the heaven and be calm. I’ve learned so much! Thankyou a lot!!! So wonderful
Ali Cyr
September 7, 2021 at 12:44 am
This reminds me of Life is Messy by Matthew Kelly, would love to see a conversation between these two
Ashley Wirfel
September 7, 2021 at 1:57 pm
Really good. This makes me think of Matthew Kelly’s book, Life Is Messy. You should do an interview with him!
Muhammed Muntasir Hasan
September 7, 2021 at 6:41 pm
such a realistic video and we would have to face difficulties or we couldnt cope with the world after getting everything normal
Altyn Park
September 10, 2021 at 1:05 pm
Thank you so much for sharing this, so helpful!